Many lefties have been jumping onto the Snowden bandwagon without any thought that this is a setup using someone’s own vanity against them. Make no mistake, I am a proud lefty Liberal as we are the ones responsible for an American middle class and expanded access to equality for all (I include both Liberal Republicans, Liberal Democrats, and Liberal others.)
After seeing Snowden for the first time I was extremely doubtful of him, not that the surveillance program isn’t real, — hell, we knew this since 2006 — but the messenger and the statements he was making were problematic. I am a software developer and knew immediately part of his statement showed a severe lack of actual software knowledge.
Are our civil rights being violated? Absolutely. Is it the same as under Bush? Absolutely not since now two branches of the government effect the decisions with the third being informed.
The problem is we have a Plutocracy where government is responsive to the military and security industrial complex and not to the American people. Spying on our own people is for the profit of a few with the side benefit of crippling dissention.
It is the same modus operandi America has been willing to live with relative to the prison industrial complex. Criminalize a whole lot of stuff to keep the pipeline flowing as middle class tax dollars are transferred to those providing the prison, security, & military ‘services’.
America has not even been looking at the ball, the ball being the ‘civil rights’ violations. Support of Snowden’s actions by the left and the outcome of Snowden’s rather stupid actions will simply put many at ease since he is not the champion we need to reveal the corruption that is our security industrial complex. As of this writing what has been his path since leaving America? He has gone first to China (Hong Kong), then Russia, then where? He has hurt the movement severely.
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Prosecute him. Let him go to court just like the laws and practices of our government go to court. The NSA program will likely pass muster because our courts don’t care and are willing to sacrifice rights for security (“unreasonable search and seizure” is vague for a reason). It spied on the Black Panthers, Young Lords, student organization and whoever else wore a black or red armband in the 1960’s. Patriot Act is still legal and the law (complain to your Congressman, not Greenwald or Snowden or the NSA). Snowden decided on his own that his contract and employment conditions with our government were somehow subordinate to his own personal interpretation of the law and Constitution. Good luck with that argument.
We need to be able to compartmentalize here. There are a few distinct issues:
1. NSA spying on Americans and others vs. the 4th Amendment et al
2. Is it sane to outsource intelligence gathering? If its a money maker, how do we control the private sector from creating situations that only expand these kinds of programs
2A.How do we control contract and exert oversight when they get inside info on a few powerful Congress people and blackmail them?
3.If NSA spying is illegal, then asking employees, ie Snowden to sign agreements not to disclose the activity, is that then conspiracy and illegal?
4. Who cares why he did it… it no longer belongs to Snowden. It now rests with the American public… let’s see just how we handle (or not) this issue.
Agree 100%
This is not about Snowden – hero or otherwise. It’s about the programs he brought to light – again. After Obama was elected, much of his base assumed that all this nefarious stuff had come to an end. In fact, it was merely codified, and the fig leaf of the rubber stamp FISA court was draped across it. Obama is little better than Bush in this regard. I don’t give a damn what country Snowden ran to. If it gets more people talking about the PROGRAMS themselves, that’s a good thing. If it gets more people angry enough with Obama to pressure him away from his police state leanings, that, too, is a good thing. What sickens me is the number of Obama supporters who will jump to his defense regardless of the number of times he’s sold us out.
When you said that “we were supposed to be doing this in much different form”, what did you mean?
I think had Snowden thought things out assuming he is genuine like Deep Throat who was instrumental in bringing down Nixon, he would have been a provider of prescient information to ‘Americans’ who could fight to get things right for Americans. With his laptops in the hands of Russians and Chinese he potentially hurts himself and the country.
I think it is clear there is still no understanding of just what info the government has been collecting. What they’ve got is phone numbers and phone numbers called from phone numbers. That’s all that can proved that they have. Anything else is pure conjecture. They don’t have names nor do they have conversations. Just phone numbers. Now, it may be they have more than this. But, phone numbers is all we can say with any evidence and degree of certainty. Now, let’s all step back, take our heads outta our a s s e s and just listen and stop making up sh*t we have no basis for saying.
David, actually they have names, dates and times, and even have admitted to listening in on many conversations already without getting a warrant. From there they search for email addresses with information given to them by the large firms who record names that you put in when registering an email address. From there, a splitter in SF and a few other places duplicate the information of everyone and sends that to a database for the NSA. They can then read those emails or chat conversations people have.
The only thing that can’t really be spied on anymore is snail mail, which is prohibited from being searched unless an actual court order is given. What has people in an uproar now from it, is the tie in with the IRS and it’s abuses under the Obama administration through illegal activities. People now see that this administration will go to all lengths to take down anyone who opposes them. That kind of activity, no matter who or what party is doing it, is an absolute abuse of power, and should be removed from such power. It’s why conservatives advocate for a limited type of government that tends to limit such abuses of power and corruption. Egberto refuses to see such a possibility when liberals are in charge.
My mail was read when I was “under the oath” in the belly of the beast. Why do you think what is “legal” matters in those circles?
Such vitriole from those who think this guy is a traitor, cemented by “evidence” where he fled to. How naive.
Please add these questions to your reasoning.
1. First and foremost and the only thing that practically matters: Who has the authority to actually stop super-secret activity; where are the checks and balances that are at the core of American democratic principles? Congressional Oversight people can’t talk and justice people are handed spin sheets. Anyone on the inside has NO place to go. No one “outside” audits; the only time that starts to happen is during a congressional investigative hearing AFTER some kind of whopping big leak. Secrecy is the antithesis and corruptor of all that is Democratic, just like money is the corruptor or all that is capitalistic.
2. Name the countries he could have fled to that would be safest from black ops hit teams or drone attacks or would not extradite him on the spot? Don’t forget that the NSA has, as we speak, their eyes & ears crosshaired on his back at all times. Snowden KNOWS he can’t hide and he knows how and why.
3. What would his chances be of negotiating a plea deal had he stayed in the USA and gave up whatever electronic evidence he has, if any? Our legal system is not about justice, it is about LEVERAGE. Does he still have leverage now with a federal prosecutor (not named yet)?
4. On the oath: “prior constraint” has been ruled unconstitutional forever in the USA, EXCEPT in matters of national security. There are principles involved that go back a millenium, the exception has been allowed for the unusual circumstances of a state of war as a matter of practicality. SCOTUS has never ruled on the possibility of illegality in any specific declaration (label) of “national security,” the individual liberties which can be denied by blocked access to evidence, or the fact that no independent authority can revoke or downgrade any security classification. We have allowed the government to push the boundaries of national security to cover anything. Watergate was the first well known exposure of this; less known was that even the NSA was involved with political surveillance around this incident. Deep Throat wasn’t outed because it would have revealed NSA capability to snoop inside and that capability remains the most tightly held of all that is secret, and trumps all other concerns in the HUMINT, COMINT, ELINT, and SIGINT worlds.
5. What specific damage has been done to the security of the United States so far? I have yet to hear of anything that amounts to anything the “bad guys” don’t already know.
6. To whom does a person with a security clearance speak when their moral values are in conflict with actual practices or orders? Remember that even a military officer can legally refuse an order from a superior officer to break the law: what can a spook do? Start showing a hint of reservations and your career, possibly your life is toast. I had no where to go when I was in the belly of the beast over 30 years ago, and I am bound even now to stay mum on the details. I was even advised not say what my clearance level was, reason: because it would add an element of credibility that was not sanctioned. Really.
TO NSA: Notice that I have not been explicit about anything. Ta Ta Ft. Meade.
You are quite wrong with your timeline, and your assumptions about Snowden make you look like a “Disinformation” agent under the employ by NSA NSA has always had the capacity and willingness to spy on US citizens.
During Watergate, it was even used by Nixon to spy on Democrats, newspaper reporters in search of informers (particularly “Deep Throat”) and government/White House employees. The only thing different is the scale; that started to explode after 9/11, authorized by G. Bush. The gargantuan scale didn’t happen overnight. Look at “Commerce Business Daily” archives to find the timeline.
Why is it a crime to expose a crime, why should that stand as treason?